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Determinism -- The easy way

I used to think that the concept of determinism, essentially the refutation to free will was too abstract and "technical" to be worth talking about -- even if it was true, who cares, right? Why get so confusing?

But I think there are simpler ways to look at this. Is killing yourself easy? Maybe -- after all, all you really need is a ridiculous overdose of some dangerous drug for example. Just swallow lots of pills. Swallowing is easy. But when you put that stuff in front of you, is it really easy? Just the thought of it would make it hard for me to make the movement with my petrified arm and put even one of those things in my mouth -- to destroy your body so voluntarily? It would probably be one of the hardest things for us to do, and when you look at it this way, it's very easy to understand how this demonstrates determinism -- a physically simple thing became nearly impossible purely because of our psychology.

But what about the people who do commit suicide? First of all, very few people commit it before giving off signs, almost signaling people to support them if they're going through a miserable chapter. You really have to truly give up. Anyway, one could argue the people who actually do it "beat the system," actually did what I said was nearly impossible -- but that was from my perspective.

If anything, this actually supports determinism: their mindset was characterized in that they had no other way out of their wretched life; at one point, what is nearly impossible for most of us became very easy once more; it was now the "obvious" decision.

Everything we do is doomed to our biology; our decisions are determined by, among other things, a combination of our personality, outside influences, and the level of ability to react appropriately to things that may contradict our personal desires (i.e., ethics; maturity). That is not the equivalent of predictable. However, sometimes predicting can indeed be easy or at least possible if you understand someone's psychological state: in the above example you would guess the person who committed suicide was probably not too happy; you would not predict someone who was genuinely smiling all the time to ever make such a decision.

For the person committing suicide, the decision depended on this question: "Is this really all I can do? And if so, would it be right to leave my family like this, or would it cause them too much pain?" In other words, you had to factor in his desires combined with morals (not leaving everyone forever); whichever feeling was more powerful would ultimately be the one to take over the decision.

We can flip this around and say that hard things can become easier depending on circumstance. For example, if your house is burning, you get out, and find out that someone is still inside, for some it may be, almost easy (as scary as it may be), to run into a burning building if it has purpose -- saving someone you love -- as opposed to say running in there to the second floor because you think you forgot a couple 10 dollar bills; for some, it's the only decision. It depends on whether or not the danger involved, factored with your judgment on the chances of success, overrides the desire to save a family member.

Really, our decisions are made easy or difficult on what seems to be just an extremely complicated equation! Sometimes it's predictable if you know the person, other times it's mysterious, but whatever it concludes is, easily or not, attributable to the brain's assessment of these factors, among dozens of others; in a sense, we aren't really choosing anything but merely observing these things play out in our head.

Comments


  • 55 Days Ago

    shequan

    I found it interesting your consideration here of relative ease or difficulty of killing oneself. let me offer a story. I heard about someone who was planning to take his own life. apparently he had just graduated from one the best colleges in the nation and was right on track to having a real good life, as one would expect. two weeks after graduating a horrible crime was perpetrated against him, destroying him completely in every way, physically, mentally, and spiritually (whatever that actually is). he was in immense pain. the pain only grew from day to day, eventually he realized he would never have the life he ought to have, that he would have had. the disparity between what would have been and what was became too enormous for him to handle psychologically; too painful. he decided to take his own life. the only thing stopping him apparently was the pain he would cause his family. he just wanted to do it in a specific way, under certain circumstances. to take his life in the specific manner which he had deemed most appropriate and favorable, he realized he was going to have to sever all connections with his family first (financial, everything) as well as have certain amount of monetary capital. he was in immense pain, had been ever since the horrible crime was perpetrated against him 2 weeks after he had graduated. this pain clouded his rational thought and caused him to embark on a completely insane, ill-conceived plan to gain the funds he needed to disappear, sever all ties with his family and take his life in the specific manner he had determined was most appropriate. as already related, apparently his primary concern was just to spare his family as much pain as possible and sought to accomplish this goal by having them not know at all what had happened to him, at least then they could entertain thoughts that maybe he was still alive somewhere since they didn't have a body. the utterly insane plan he came up with to gain the financial resources to take his life in this very specific manner, a plan that could only have come from a horribly vulnerable mind in immense pain, exploded in complete disaster before it ever got off the ground causing him even more pain. landed him prison, where he was under suicide watch, being kept alive against his will.

  • 2 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    I know. I was only taking God into this diskussion, to make my point about predicting things. Else you ofcourse is right. I think it makes a lot of sense to put him in here. all im saying.

  • 2 Months Ago

    SpaceOddity

    Sokrates,

    what you say makes perfect sense, although it is false.

    It is possible to think within different 'idealogies' or conceptual schemes, compare them to other schemes, reflect on them and understand where incommensurabilities reside.

    But this debates about God, free will and determinism is an old one, takes many forms, is like analyzing a chess opening 20 moves deep. 

    Does God have free will or not?  That is not an ideologically based question, but a question that is valid in any conceptual scheme.  Is God inside or outside time?  What could it mean to be outside time?  Is God all-knowing or not?  Did God create us free?  Does God even have the power to create us free, if our being free means that God would NOT thereby know or be able to predict what we will do in the future? 

    this list of questions goes on and on.  I'm not taking a stand on these issues.  I'm not expressing any particular 'idealogy'.  I'm just showing you the variety of complexities that arise and the kinds of questions that can be asked.  IF you want to spend time trying to answer, them, fine.  All I'm saying in response to you and Elubus is that this has been discussed for 2500 years and perhaps it would be worth your time to google 'free will and determinism' in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (free online) to learn a thing or two about it.

  • 2 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    SpaceOddity. You question about God, is superficial. It is the typical ateist questions. I am not religious. But the question you are asking, is ask by people how have never beleived, or doesnt know that much about religion. I think you argument are incomplete, and I agreed with you that beleiving in God is making new problems. But the problem you are raising, is typical non-beleiver questions. And I dont think you are able so distance from you own point of view, to discussed the problems in another idealogi than you own. Because this problems is the problems you ideologi have with the beleivers ideologi. Not and internal problem in the beleiver ideologi. If that makes any sense.

  • 2 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    I dont think I am.

    If something is determent. Then at least it most be possible to predict!

    That is the hole point. I know many religion is telling otherwise. But that is because of one thing. People like to beleive God can do everything, and they like to have a free will. And many religion connect Gods ability to do everything, with ability to predict everything. So I think the reason to included God in this diskussion, is that God is one of the reason this discussion started! God in some form.

    Nearly all the philofers defending a free will in the last 2500 years beleived in some kind of intelligens og purpuse. Maybee a God, maybee intelligens meterial, or the universal atom, or somethink like that. And nearly all defending determenism is from the science point of view. And offcourse a million in between. But sometimes it is easier to dicuss something from the extremes, because the differenses are more clear.

    It is the old discussion between materie and spirit.

    If somethink is determent, then it must be at least teoretical possible to predict?

    Like to see some of you argue with that.

  • 2 Months Ago

    SpaceOddity

    The question is not what 'definition' we choose to use to define 'freedom'.  That would make the issue completely arbitrary, just as it is essentially arbitrary whether we uses centimeters or inches.  What matters is what freedom is.  That is beyond the definition of the phenomenon, but an understanding of the phenomenon itself.  There is a clear problem here, and it is biological as well as philosophical, since any complete account of freedom would have to be reconciled with our biological and physical understanding of causation. 

    Philosophers have been debating this issue for over 2500 years.  They are not stupid.  Just about every possible response you could have to the debate has been thoroughly explored.  To think you can solve it by your centimeter analogy (which misunderstands how we actual measure anyway, let alone language, reality and the relation we have to both) is a bit...how shall I say, presumptuous.  Perhaps you'd benefit by googling 'free will and determinism'.  I suggest looking at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, a good free online source.

  • 2 Months Ago

    Elubas

    Sokrates and Space, I think here, in a similar way to many cases with philosophy, a lot of your position depends on the somewhat trivial matter of your precise, deepest definition of "free." In one sense, if everything we do is based on biology, we are all "doomed" to make a certain decision, even if it's one that we do not yet know. But then again, you could argue it's rather annoying to think in that way, because, well, of course everything we do is because of biology -- that would be an overly obvious point. It's like saying when we measure something to be 1 cm, right on the mark, to say "It's probably not exactly a centimeter," because we could be off by a few diminutive micrometers that we can't see. And that's true, of course, but usually micrometers aren't so important. Getting all finicky with the micrometers can be compared to spending so much time on what free really means.

    Whether the above fits in with your definition of free or not, one thing this topic makes you think about is how sometimes you can predict what people will do based on how much you know them; that's where statements like "I know him; he would never lie to me like that," are based on.

    Btw, Sokrates: I wouldn't get involved in discussing things with Space if I were you -- he (or she) mostly argues to feel superior. Just let him (or her) think that and move on.

  • 2 Months Ago

    SpaceOddity

    Sokrates,

    you are confusing predictable with determinism.  Determinism has nothing essentially to do with predictability.

    God, determinism and free will introduces other problems, but does not solve any of the old ones.  Does God have free will?  MUST God ALWAYS do what is GOOD?  If so, then God is FORCED to do what is good.  If God chooses or creates what's "Good", then Good would be relative to God's whims.  Also problematic. 

    And if God created us knowing what we'd do, then we're not free since we'd just be puppets on God's strings.  In any and every case, free will is a problem, not just for us vis-a-vis God, but a problem for God as well.

    The more interesting arguments are those of the compatibilists, ie, those that try to show a disconnect between determinism and free will, that both are compatible.  Sokrates, I don't see how your experiences with Jehovah's witness shed any light on these issues.

  • 2 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    determenism and free will does collide. I was Jehovas Witness once, i did break out. Jehovas Witnessed Beleived that God can predict everything, and that people have a free will. A free will is the power to choose! A free decision cant be predicted! The only way it can be predicted, is (a) because the act of making the decision has allready taken place, or (b) because the person (determenism (more or less) dont have the power to make a free choice. Free will cant be predicted! You can only predict something that are secure, and the definition of free will, is that it is free untill the subjebt make a decission. So per defintition a a free decision is unclear to everyone untill it has been made. So free will cant be determenism. Because determanism says that decission only can be ONE thing. And how can the decission then be free? Maybee there are other definitions, and in betweens. But determenism and free will in its ektreme, atleast can not be connected.

  • 2 Months Ago

    SpaceOddity

    A few points:

    1) Determinism needs to be more rigorously defined.  Strictly speaking, it's the thesis that the antecedent conditions of an event are sufficient for causally producing that event. 

    2) Determinism is NOT necessarily incompatible with free will.  In fact, the position that determinism is compatable with free will has a long and strong following; these people are known as compatibilists and the thesis is compatibilism. 

    3) Even if determinism is FALSE, we still might NOT have free will.  Free will is not characterized by randomness, and if the lack of determinism (ie, indeterminism) is simply random chance, then it's hard to see how free will is compatible with random chance. 

  • 2 Months Ago

    JohnTheLovely

    Science is very good at sorting out biological influences, some people with certain genes are more likely to kill themselves, some people born in certain environments are more likely to kill themselves. There is no biological or cultural determinism but there is a high degree of predictability, determinism is such a strong term, its basicly fate.

  • 3 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    I was only teasing. In this matters it always easier to ask the questions. Myself i am somewhere between guys like Vygotsky/Piaget and Gergen. Maybee a pramatic version of Gergen if thats posible. I think we define our self and our world through our language. And that truth is relative. But that is a different diskussion with its flaws. And eksplanations. But yeah the filosofi in this is fun. And I have personally drifted a bit around. Which ofcourse as a relatist believing, that truth is relativ and to some eksten human created, is easy. We understand the world through our senses, so how can we even be sure, even if we agree that we see the same. If it isn´t through language. But again being a relativist, my argumentation is cirkalar, if you prove me wrong, I will just ask "what truth is anyway", Im not sofist, i dont belive in absolute relatism, so still something gotta be more true than the rest. But still to some eksten i believe the world at least in our time, is what you and your society created to be. But insteresting to read you answer. I was just teasing, because I thought that some of the things you said didnt make sense, for me at least.  

  • 3 Months Ago

    Elubas

    Sokrates, perhaps you wouldn't understand, but it just interests me to think about these things, even if there is nothing concrete to be gained. It stimulates my mind.

    To update a little bit: I may have been a bit unfair in what I consider free will -- I mean, yes, technically everything comes down to brain cells, but since we don't know what those brain cells will do, we can feel very free.

    With that said, you can predict what people will do sometimes by their nature, and that's why I often like to think of this as determinism. I don't feel like I really can put my finger through a candle; I feel like the force of my consciousness prevents me. So to me, that perspective makes the most sense. But on the other hand, you could just view that as really not wanting to do something. But whether you put your finger in the candle or not depends on who you are: are you an ambitious guy who will take dares? One could predict this guy will do it. I, on the other hand, would never take such a chance :) People who have trouble avoiding the temptation to eat seem to have some kind of force in their biology working against them too: they will tell you that their body is more important to them than food, but when food is in front of them, they suddenly have trouble resisting. Before the food, they chose not to eat too much; when it's front of you though, sometimes that decision gets a bit altered :)

    Anyway, it depends on how you look at it I guess, but thinking about that plain interests me. I apologize if the title implied that I knew all the answers (it probably did); I genuinely just thought I found an easier way to think about the whole thing that I wanted to share, mostly based on that "Can I really do this or that?" This post doesn't have to imply anything. Please don't take it personally.

    If determinism is true, it doesn't bother me. Sure, sometimes I can predict what decision I will make Tongue out, but life is a fun ride and part of that fun is the uncertainty for what will come next. And we have plenty of that :)

  • 3 Months Ago

    Sokrates1984

    So is it determinism that you setting up this blog and this discussion? And if it is, what is you gain? It can be simple coryoasity. Because it had to have a purpuse! So it ends in cirkalar argumentation. And you can really not use this diskussion at all, because maybee it is a waste of time if you dont have a free will. I Mean what do you biologi gain from this. You missing the fact that what evolusion is random, and some time stupidity. That we have evolve trough random. Are this a result of evidens or is it result of "random" thinking? I dont think the differens between "random" genes evolution, and therefor both stupid and good thoughts, is so very different from the concept of a free will.

  • 9 Months Ago

    Elubas

    Our brain cells are going to do what they do. Do skin cells think freely? Not really; they just react. They grow, shrink, or die based on their nature and whatever outside factors there are (such as the burning of your hand). Brain cells are no different. They just make the reaction that follows the instructions of mother nature.

    If you can agree with this, then all the brain cells in our brain just react a certain way, and all of them together forms a signature personality (since no two humans are identical, of course), whose decisions are determined by that personality plus the influencing variables.

    It just seems a little strange to think of anything as "free," since everything happens in accordance with the laws of nature. Our decisions do too; they're just more complex events than the reactions of individual cells: they are the result of the many instantaneous reactions going on in our brain.

    By your argument, though, because the reaction belonged to the skin cell; because the reactions of the brain cells belonged to the brain cells, those things actually are free; I don't buy it.

    But is this wrong because I said "our" a couple times? Again, don't miss the point.

  • 9 Months Ago

    Ondrej22

    Well, I wasn't trying to be pedantic. Just trying to show that when you speak about "freedom", you should probably define: 1. it's subject (who is to be free) 2. the constraint (from what?) 3. the purpose (to do what?) In your interpretation the subject and the constraint are identical. ("I" am supposed to be free from my "nature", hence from myself, which is a bit strange…)

    It was of course not my aim to convince or even offend anyone with my comments. Just got interested in the topic and tried to post a bunch of hopefully at least partially meaningfull sentences… Just for the sake of it… I certainly don't believe to have any kind of truth or teaching to convince others of… You should also keep in mind, that my actions are determined…

    Wink

  • 9 Months Ago

    Elubas

    Your post seems rather pedantic and you may be missing the point here. When I say "you," "me," etc, it's only to put things in perspective and for convenience purposes only -- it's not meant to be taken totally literally.

    For example: ever describe how to perform an activity with "you do this," "you do that" kind of thing? Obviously, when it's said in this informal context, it's not meant to be taken literally -- if it was, that would mean when "you do this" is said, the person being addressed would actually have to have been doing what was described regularly, during the time the phrase was said. More often the person saying it really means "I do this, and this is what you would have to do." when he says "you do this."

    "What else could the word "free" possibly be refering to??"

    I don't know, but not necessarily "your decision." You can interpret free however you want, and I guess there's no changing how we do so here. I've made my case. It's quite possible that nothing in the world is literally free, just as few occurrences are 100% certain.

    The topic is drying up for me. It is an interesting topic, but going over the same interpretation does get old. At the end of the day, each may have their own opinion... though it may or may not be determined Laughing

  • 9 Months Ago

    Ondrej22

    "Well, again, your decision is not necessarily the equivalent of free decision here."

    I believe it is.Wink What else could the word "free" possibly be refering to?? If it is "indetermination", than you're right that there are no free decisions, because "indetermined decision" is (as I have tried to show) a contradiction. In this case the word "free" refers to a logical impossibility and we may simply drop it as nonsensual.

    "You feel a certain way, think a certain way, yes, but you can't actually control that feeling (though it may seem otherwise) but are merely observing a result of your nature."

    And that's what I consider a fallacy. I don't just feel or think a certain way. In fact I'M a sum of certain thoughts, feelings etc. with a physical body attached (or vice versa). Therefore it is nonsensual to claim that I'm determined by my nature, because in fact I'M that nature and I'M nothing else. I'm not just observing its results, I'M those results. I'm both the observer and the observed… In other words when you use the word "you" and suppose it to refer to something different from "nature" of a given person (and hence something that can be determined by this "nature") it's not clear at all what does the word "you" refer to…

    Of course, some part of your "Self" may be determined by other parts (i.e. reason may conflict with passions and vice versa, conventions may conflict with bothSmile) but in this case you can't be considered "unfree" except perhaps you identify your-self with one of those parts. But this would IMO be stupid as they would just not work without the others… (Reason without desire would have no purpose to serve, therefore no reason to act, therefore no freedom. The other way around isn't much better of course…) You are IMO just determinedSmile to reach a conclusion that freedom does not exist, because your notion of it is so contradictory, that it really can't.Smile

    Of course, all of this has nothing to do with actual philosophical determinism. That would be a completely different question…

  • 9 Months Ago

    Elubas

    When you learn to like a food you once hated, I don't think you're so much changing your nature as you are discovering its true identity. For example, if there is a food you never try, you will never know if your body just "liked" it. It still had a (arguably determined) preference though, you just didn't find out what it was.

    It is said that you are born with your sexual preference (can't confirm that though); however, that does not mean we consciously know what it is! That's why gay men have often dated women but then realized that's not what they truly wanted Laughing

    That's how complicated our minds are: we don't even know what we truly think sometimes! And that's probably why it's natural to think we have so much control.

  • 9 Months Ago

    navitsam

    Interesting discussion. Here's my two bits:

    Free will suggests we are responsible for our actions while determinism suggests not, for, if what you did was not a free choice how can you be held responsibile in any way. The overwhelming majority of people, when experiencing injustice, feel wronged and seek retribution in some form, hence the justice system we have in place.

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