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Chess "Respect"

At the 2010 Copper State International (which I played in), GM Alex Lenderman took my mom out on the stairs which were right outside of the tournament area to give her some advice for me.  He told my mom that I was not a kid anymore (I guess 12 years-old is not a kid anymore) and that I was a chess professional and that I need to resign in resignable positions especially against GMs when I am just wasting their time.  He said that it is a matter of respect.  He was referring to two games I played at Copper State—one against GM Mikheil Kekelidze and the other that I happened to be playing at the time that he was talking to my mom against IM David Pruess.  Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate Alex taking an interest in me and wanting to help.  I consider Alex to be one of my friends.   And I will agree with him that in my game against GM Mikheil Kekelidze I should have resigned earlier.  I was upset because I played a dumb move so I just played it out when I should have had respect for the GM and resigned.  However, in my game against IM David Pruess I felt like I still had some chances and maybe a few fun little tricks (I like fun little tricks).  I have just as much respect for IM David Pruess (maybe more because I know him better), but for me I wanted to play it out to the point where I had no reasonable chance because by playing it out, I learn.  It is important to me to have these chances to learn because I want to be a GM also.  Besides that, as Saviely Tartakower once said, “No one ever won a game by resigning.  You can’t argue with that one.

 

So where is the fair line? 

 

I remember a game I played in the World Open where my 2300 opponent seemed to be very mad at me because I was not resigning even though I thought I still had reasonable chances.  He was mad and playing fast and I saw some tricks that I might be able to get.  I resigned as soon as I thought I had no reasonable chances left.  Once I resigned he left without even saying anything and was obviously very upset.  I personally thought I had great reason for playing on.  First of all, there is a lot to learn from playing out a tough position. I want to be that 2300 player one day (hopefully soon).  Second of all, when he got mad it gave me more incentive to play it out because he probably wasn’t going to play his best chess and it upset me that he had gotten so upset when I felt like I still had chances.

 

But there is another point which is probably even more important.  When you continue to play (as mentioned by Tartakower) you have chances to win.  There was another game mentioned in one of my blogs (http://blog.chess.com/KaydenTroff/the-heart-of-a-lion) in which I went down a Queen for a piece and Rook.  At this point many people would have resigned, but I kept fighting and later on got it back but it was still a losing endgame.  It was a Bishop and Rook with some pawns versus Knight and Rook with some pawns.  He had the Bishop and Rook and he was up a pawn with a better position.  I was checking him and he brought his King down so he was still winning but he was in a dangerous position and he had to be careful.  I knew that I had chances to trap the King.  He wasn’t careful enough and I won in an endgame where you would think I would lose or at best draw.  I had determined in that game that if he brought his King over instead of bringing it down that I would resign because I had no more reasonable chance of winning, but he didn’t do that so I knew I still had some reasonable chances.  There are lots of examples of games like this.  In the US Jr. Championship, there were a few games that appeared lost that finished differently: Parker Zhao vs. John Daniel Bryant and Ray Robson vs. Eric Rosen (Eric had mate in 12 at one point in the game).  Sam Shankland admitted that it took some luck in his game against John Daniel Bryant, but if he had resigned that possibility would not have been there.

 

There are some games, however, where you have to pray for miracle beyond miracles.  These games you most likely should resign because there is almost no (if none at all) chance that you can learn something from those games.  In the games where you are losing but still have reasonable chances then I think you should play it out to learn something,  (if you are a Super GM, you can resign because there is probably not a whole lot you can learnSmile), and then maybe you will luck out.  Both Alex Lenderman and Sam Shankland have said that luck is part of chess.  In the games where you think you are barely losing, I recommend fighting not resigning!! You could be wrong and even if you are right, you still most likely have good drawing chances. 

 

So to me, the fair line is don’t play ridiculous positions out (I am still working on this a little bit), but if you feel like you have reasonable chances then it is your choice if you want to play it out or not.  It is important to remember that you need to give respect to the players who have earned that respect through all their hard work and dedication.  If you are playing a GM, you don’t need to be down a whole lot for it to be a ridiculous position to play out.  However, I hope that GMs and IMs that are playing 12 year old kids who are not kids any more, but are still trying to learn and get better, will understand that sometimes they play a game out because they want to learn or maybe because they are mad at themselves for making a stupid move, but they are not trying to show disrespect.

 

Here's an example from the recent US Junior Championship where John Daniel Bryant should have resigned but played it out and lucked out (granted Parker Zhao was in time trouble):

 

Comments


  • 21 Months Ago

    Bryon_doyle

    woops sorry,  in that last diagram the bishop and pawn are switched places,  it makes a difference because black then doesn't have bg4 to interpose,  sorry about  setting up the diagram incorrectly :(     lol,  my memory is so bad!

  • 21 Months Ago

    Bryon_doyle

    i played on in a position where i had one rook vs two bishops and two pawns,  i really wanted to resign, as there was absoulutly no hope of drawing, but i played on,  no idea why, kind of insulting i suppose  anyways this position ended up on the board

     .. well i had less than 5 seconds on my clock but it didn't take me 5 seconds to play rxg5!! draw as black cannot avoid stalemating me or dropping both pawns.  granted it was a miracle draw! and maybe i should of resigned.... but I was happy to get the half point instead!...   it really is a tough question, when should you resign,  I have had players play on to mate even at 1700 strength,  it never bothered me... i guess I figured its a tournament people pay money to play, and if they want to play to mate thats there right, Igor never complained to me for playing on,  he would laugh sometimes and be like... why?  but he never got upset with me

  • 21 Months Ago

    Webhead

    Who asked Lenderman?  There is no rule stating when you MUST resign.

  • 21 Months Ago

    BlueKnightShade

    Saying that someone "should" resign is in fact disrespectful. At least if somebody says it when the game is still in progress, because that is an advice and it is strictly forbidden for the player to get advice from others during game play. You don't resign because you "should", you resign because the game reached its end, you are outplayed, you are "mate", not check mate technical speaking, but it is like being mated, there is no real game left, just moving the pieces around for no reason.

    If there are still tactical possibilities or some kind of positional possibilities that can be explored so that you won't feel that the game is over, well then it isn't over.

    If you believe you still have chances you don't resign. That would be plain stupid since resigning is really saying that you don't believe you have any chances left. Chess is not an objective game when you are in the middle of playing it, it is a game between two subjective persons. Thus your subjective belief that you have chances matters a lot during the game play. After the game is finished you can analyse the game and maybe get a different view, but that is an entirely different situation.

    The time is an important part of the game and the time left before the time control is part of the position. Thus you can't judge the position solely by looking at the board you need to look at the clock as well. Otherwise it would be kidding people to have a time control.

    If you really want to use the term "should" with regards to resigning, then you "should" resign when you feel the game is over, not when somebody else dictates to you that the game is over.

  • 21 Months Ago

    SmakcHappy

    An interesting way I was told to look at it was this. "It is bad manners not to resign an entirely lost position. It is worse manners to expect your opponent to resign." I believe Kayden Troff is fully in the right here. Especially in a rated tournament, or a tournament with prize money, a loss is devastating. However, as he pointed out, MANY draws and even wins have been pulled out of "lost" games. As for resigning against David Pruess.......well then......I would like to quote the movie Galaxy Quest. *Ahem*. "Never give up. Never surrender."

  • 21 Months Ago

    PLAYtoWINtheGAME

    It is not in any way "extremely disrespectful" to not resign in a game in which u believe as the losing player that u have a chance to draw or possibly win. It is disrespectful to not shake hands and say gg to the other player. That is rude. I hate to lose more than anyone i know, but i always say gg and give the winning player congrats if they played fairly. 

  • 21 Months Ago

    forrie

    It is not disrespectful against the opponent to play out the position. I think for you your chess games must be firstly a learning experience and the last thing you must think of is to please your opponent. The player with the upper hand must still prove that he is winning. And he must always be willing to do that even if he is a GM. The latter must also understand that learning is important for someone of your age.

  • 21 Months Ago

    Eastendboy

    The GM wasn't trying to intimidate anyone, instead he went to the kid's mother and told her that her kid was out of line. 

    I understand that kids almost always want to fight it out.  That's the arrogance of youth and it isn't going to change.  But don't fool yourself, if playing on and getting something out of the game requires the GM to blunder or make a series of errors for you to have a chance of getting something out of the game - you are being incredibly disrespectful.  If the GM is fighting against the clock, it's altogether different, and no one will blame you for playing on at least until the time control.  But to play on in in positions which require big mistakes from the GM for you to get something, that's a slap in the face to the GM.  It's like saying 'I don't think you're good enough to win this won game.  Prove it.'  Would you say that to the GM's face?  Probably not.  If you would, then the GM won't be the last person to pull your mother aside for a chat about your bad manners.  Of course you are fully entitled to play on until the bitter end.  The rules are absolutely clear about this.  But the demands of etiquette are not the same as rules.  If you achieve your dream of earning a GM title one day, I'm sure you will see the error of your ways when the young kids start treating you the same way.  I doubt you'll have the same perspective when the shoe's on the other foot.

  • 21 Months Ago

    ModernElite

    I play it out just to tick people off and put them on emotional tilt. If you don't want to play the whole game, don't start.

  • 21 Months Ago

    ProfessorEvil

    For me, it depends on the game. If I think that there is still a possiblity of a draw, or maybe a win I will push foward. However if I deem it hopeless then I will resign in a formal game against an opponet I do not know ( like games on this site). However, if I am playing a friend or relative in real life I won't resign. I will try and find a way to rectify my mistake and push on until the very end. I also never resign in a bullet, regardless of how bad my position or material is.

  • 21 Months Ago

    sodayodadude

    I think if you are in a lost position you should resign, because it gets annoying for the other player. For example, at my High school chess meet I was happy that I won because I was up A queen, a bishop, and 3 pawns agianst his bare king. I waited for resignation so I can watch my teammates play so I can tell them what I thought should be played in the after-meet analysis. However, my opponent felt he could still draw and he played on....

  • 21 Months Ago

    67jedichessmaster

    If the shoe was on the other foot,would the "GrandMaster" resign?If he kept playing,  it would  be  like"He`s a "GrandMaster he might find a way out...and no one would be saying anything about  him not resigning...People take FAKE VACATION TIME OUTS here ALL the time (Yes...I`M YELLING) !The only respect a player should need is a handshake before and after and a "GG"....but like you said guys walking away without shaking hands(i got a word for guys like that) and guys on here saying "dont say GG to me(words for guys like that too!)But  do the game a favor young man...ALWAYS offer your HAND...AWAYS thank them for the game...ALWAYS be better than sore losers and sore winners!Always be A Gentalman...even with Cowards!     Peace And Love...To those that like and those that dont !                                 67JediChessMaster   

                             SPORTSMANSHIP ALWAYS  !!!!!

  • 21 Months Ago

    Terlimone

    I resign when I want to resign, not when my opponent thinks I have to do so, whatever the reason is. On this site I had a few times this question by an opponent, my answer is clear: resign yourself!

    Those who are mentionning 'respect' do not understand that word. It is not a chess rule that when you think the other one is going to lose he has to resign. With respect it has nothing to do, with arrogancy everything.

    And for those who try to kill with mad faces or give signs with nervous coughs or gestures: go to a doctor who can help you... I contunue the game.

  • 21 Months Ago

    Ladygagafan

    I have a great example for this one.  I was playing a game down state, (illinois)  and I went down a rook.  but I still had pawns to compensate for it so I continued to play it out.  Plus, I didnt go down a rook because I didnt see it or I made a mistake, It was part of my plan because I was confident in my knight that I had left on my board and my ability on how to use a knight.  

    Anyway, when he went up that rook, I caught all the cocky tones and gestures in his face and hands.  He thought he won that game because all I had was a knight and all he had to do was get rid of it and then he could finish me off in a pawn endgame, which was ironic cause if he traded off his rook for my knight,the win would have been clearly in my court seeing as I would have been in a better position.  Anyway, I continued to play down a rook but with my knight and I kept on thaurting his attempts at queening, constantly forking his pawns and rooks and taking them out one by one.  Then I finally worked my knight up to a comfy spot, connected to a pawn and protecting another pawn.  Then he took my knight and I pushed a pawn to the seventh rank and it was over, he couldnt catch it and I won the game. So giving up isnt the best thing to do in a lost postion.  I was suppose to lose that game but I won it cause I kept at it.  So it just depends if you are confident.

  • 21 Months Ago

    echecs06

    It is DISRESPECTFUL not to RESPECT my right to fight to the end. I have won 'LOST' games and lost "won" games :-)

  • 21 Months Ago

    mauerblume

    I normally resign a game when I do not see any realistic chances for a draw or a win. It is a kind of self-respect and not wasting my time.

    I personally enjoy my opponents playing on in totally lost positions. So I can demonstrate what a "phantastic" player I am without taking any risks Smile

  • 21 Months Ago

    Workmane

    I'm not in your league but I still remember the first time I did the "50-move rule" with a live opponent--he had the material to defeat me but just couldn't get it together--so I danced for 50 moves and called the draw...he writhed, groaned and if looks could kill I would have been extinct, part of me even felt kind of bad for setting out to dance for the draw.  As I thought about it later I came to the conclusion that we get what we deserve in chess, so if my position is lost--don't ask me to resign--just finish me (mortal kombat reference) and move on--otherwise play on.

    The immortal Dr. House once said that if someone else's life ever seems more important than your own, you should sign the organ donor card and pull the trigger...in chess, if you ever feel that someone is so much better than you that they can't blunder or blow an advantage--then resign on the spot, otherwise--play on!

  • 21 Months Ago

    ZporeSuperMaster

    It is quite silly how many think resigning is a matter of "respect."  It should be them telling that to themselves, it takes "respect" to be patient and finish the game! 

    Also, isn't checkmating fun, sometimes I prefer to finish out games and checkmate.  Sometimes I like to take all the opponents pieces, get three queens, and new minor pieces, and then finally checkmate!

  • 21 Months Ago

    ZporeSuperMaster

    It can actually be a good technique to just let the time run down for 45 minutes in a masters game, instead of resigning.  That way, it will tire the opponents.  (Only in serious, serious tournaments such as grandmasters and masters tournaments though)

  • 21 Months Ago

    george1977

    First, I need to say I am a chess coach with any young spanish promises (with any IM norms, for example) to my charge. More of them are now 14-16 years old, but at the time they begins to work with me their age were about 11-12 y. old.

    I saw in their games exactly the same matter, and I have been "warned" by external people sometimes about didn't resign previously. But they wasn't great players yet! 

    Simply, a game between an adult player (with any experience) and a young boy had their own rules: if the game was completely winning by the old player, the inexpert-young player must resign... So, where was the limit? Undecided

    All adult beliefs are respectable here, because a 10-12 y. old boy have their own and understand others is not an easy task, I think.

    Thinking that always it is dependent of the board's position (and judges about it could be so different, even in experimented players...), I saw that any respect is really traveling out of there, in situations they known was vastly desperated Frown

    And, of course, I didn't agree with it. Speaking with people involved in, it was frequent to listen something as "what fault at respect? They was any tricks where my opponent could have felt!"  (remember their youth)

    Aside of time, they could be really easy tricks to guess --> for us! And many times for the opponent too... But I thought they are too young to go there and say them: you must resign, there are not respectable - in various senses - possibilities. It was a shock!

    But when your level was growing up, things go a bit different: any of them resigned if there wasn't hope, but not always. With a guy with a "paired level" or more (masters, about all), ok; against a "less level" or even a women, no-no!! The ego was so strong... Frown

    Nevertheless an "annoying thing" emerged: George, why my young-inexpert opponent don't resign? Surprised They were getting paid with the same money!

    So, with the years, and from my point of view, I see that bad habits may appear if this question is not commented and "correctly" debated.

    Make what you want, ok, but show the people it is according to your chess and moral level... Smile

    In Kayden case I only can say: please, listen to your friends, who are more experience people, as in chess aspects as in life aspects

    You are not a single-beginner player or so, you are a very good player with probably a wide chess future! I think your charisma gets important now, because you are an example for other young playersWink

    For ending, only two things:

    1) I agree plenty with gmitchell850: names are not necessary all the time. Depending the article or the topic you can leave aside them.

    2) In Bryan-Parker Zhao game there is a strong factor which could make a draw: the simple exchange of the knight by e-pawn. Even without time trouble black must show how to win against a good defense. Enough reason to continue! Smile

    Good luck with your future decisions, Kayden and thanks

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