WHOOPS

 

Above, in the first paragraph, I stated that a pool game would be random. It most certainly is NOT, it's almost completely a game of skill. I meant to add the pool game example to the skill examples chess and hoops.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for the compliment, Stacy.

 

dananananana nananananana...Batgirl! On your first question, as we are only talking legalities, and not morals/ethics, so, yes, betting on a test of skill, in which you are *involved*,  is *not* considered gambling by most states, counties, towns, etc. in The Union, i.e., your chess game at the club or that game of HORSE in your neighbor's driveway. This does *not* apply, however, if the wager between the two parties is on a mostly or completely random outcome, i.e., that craps game on the steps of your brownstone, shooting that game of pool (despite the "No Gambling" signs posted in *every* poolroom), or even playing "keepsies" when flipping baseball cards with you childhood buddy.

 

I personally believe that nearly all gambling should be legalized and regulated, but that's a whole 'nother issue...

 

I think you're seeing where question two is headed then: Wagering on those very same games of *skill* above, as a *non*-participant, *is* considered gambling. Only sometimes it is allowed by law, i.e., the jai-alai games in Miami, the sportsbooks in legal casinos, or even betting the ponies at the local (not chess) OTB.

 

This being said, an untold amount of gambling, as defined by law, does indeed take place. Much of it is actually seen but ignored. That office football pool? It aint legal, but the feds and even the local constabulary are hopefully too busy fighting real crime. They *do* frown on illegal sports bookies and backroom casinos. It's all a little arbitrary. Basically, as long as it's not too organized (that word may have connotations to them), or not too big (they like their tax money), you will be able to get away with betting on your favorite club player's chess game after the Sat knockout or having that casino night in your basement for fun and a few bucks with close friends.

 

Too many asterisks and parentheses... ;)

So, betting on you own skill vs an opponent's skill, then, is not gambling in the technical sense (as you implied the luck aspect could be argued)?

 

What about the man standing over there betting with another man on the outcome of my game? Is that gambling on chess?

 

 

 

Wow.That was a great post. Thanks so much for adding to this thread!

This isn't aimed at anyone, I just am fairly knowledgeable about gambling and though I'd share what I know in connection with chess:

Firstly, gambling, as defined by law in most states of the union, is only considered so when one wagers either on a game of chance (one with a significant luck factor that *overrides* any/all skill elements) or on a contest of skill in shich one's self is *not* a participant. By the way, both of those elements are what is allowing poker in more and more areas, due to the fact that it has been proven that the overriding element in poker is the relative skills of the players, and not the not-so-insignificant deal of the cards...over a long period of time. It's also why you can't be arrested for your $20 pool game or that keg of beer you bet against the other rugby team. Anyway, as chess has "no" luck factor (argue that point somwhere else, please, you know what I mean), as long as you are betting on you own skill, and not someone else's game, it's not gambling and is perfectly legal. Check your local laws, as this is not always the case...legally, anyway.

Secondly, agreeing to put money on the outcome of your chess game with another in the park or at the cafe is really no different than buying an entry fee to a tourney and playing for prize money. When you sign up you are saying, "I wager that my skill level is higher than yours, and if I utilize it properly, I will take home a greater share of the cash (along with rating points, blah blah blah)". It's why chess tournies aren't illegal, as they do not constitute gambling. Just like your $2 park game.

 Thirdly, chess for cash, as far as number of games played per day in person, may possibly be the most popular form. In the urban areas I have frequented, where chess thrives (NYC, Philly, L.A.),  if one is to happen across a game in public, my anecdotal experience is that a huge percentage of the time, green exchanges hands at the end of the game. Chess clubs, parks, cafes, and even book stores. Frankly, it's all rather innocuous. Very few people get "hustled" (a player disguises her skill through salemanship of through sub-par play, then turns it on when the big money is in play); most people with the brains to play chess, and the balls to do it for money, are usually far from being suckers. And why not do it? Playing for money doesn't exclude playing beautiful chess, nor does it undermine its integrity. And not playing for money ever doesn't make those players any more "pure". If that were so, all of the GMs we admire would be the lowest of the low, as they have played for more money, via tournies, matches, *and* side games, then any of us ever will. Batgirl (above) has the history of high-level, cash play correct. Did I mention skittles rooms? Go to any major tourney and check out the action in the skittles room. Cash, cash, cash. Usually exchanged in a civil fashion, even. And there's some good chess, although there's too much blitz/bullet for my liking. Plus, you'll get to see Roman D. in action; he's ALWAYS there.

 Lastly, and this one *is* directed to Stacy, as educational, INRE a couple of statements you made, inferring that gamblers may be somewhat less intelligent than gamblers, and that one would gamble purely for excitement in the first place: No, there is no maximum IQ to gamble, as there are some of us who use our IQ and work ethic to invest money in endaevors that have elements of chance, but in which we know that knowledge and discipline will win out in the end. We call ourselves "Advantage Players" in card rooms and casinos, and "Investors" in the business world. You would indeed be throwing your hard-earned money away if you were to gamble on the lottery, or a horse race, or 90% of casino games like craps. But if you counted cards properly in blackjack, or made disciplined, informed sports bets, or were a talented poker player, well, the sky's the limit on your earnings. Not many people do it, but it *is* done. It is done for the money and the entrepreneurial lifestyle. Those that do it for excitement, lose, ultimately. Most people *do* just throw their money in the crapper, when it comes to gambling. But that's pure gambling, and we're talking about using your skill to overcome uncertainty, no?

I never bet on my chess games: I suck in OTB chess, especially blitz. There's no advantage in that...

Thanks!

"I began to explain that I've never heard, or thought, of anyone gambling over a game of chess."

 

Obvoiusly you've never been to Washington Square Park.

 

Here's the link you wanted:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/nyregion/17hustlers.html?pagewanted=all 

Well, there was no such chess ban here in the Philippines. During my college days i used to be a chess hustler and in fact goes to a club without money and out with some to buy hamburger and coke and a little extra to see a movie. During the games, there were insults, teasing or harsh words just to distract the opponent and eventually win the game. But i realized then that i was not playing because of the money, but because of pride. I right away stop going to club and will play chess only at tournaments and to people who will not wager.

Interesting.

I was informed that they actually imposed a ban on chess for a few years in the Philippines, on account of rampant wagering on third party speed games - which they were eventually obliged to lift of course, since chess could not be suppressed - which occurred shortly before I happened to arrive there to participate in several tournaments in 1991.

Lol. Nope, thankfully.

Well, I hope you didn't have any money riding on your bet with your grandfather!

I don't see the excitement in gambling over chess, either. But then I don't see any excitement in gambling over anything. I work too hard for my money to waste it.

What could ever be more exciting than gamble over a Kasparov-Karpov game!!!? lol

There are some chess players who gamble in DuPont Circle.

Any game- whether it be basketball, football, horse racing, and even chess- can be used to gamble away money. Of course, it's not the norm.

Paolo

Actually, chess has a long history of gambling. In its early days, chess was often played using dice (exactly how, I have no idea). The dice were eventually abandoned due to religious prohibitions against gambling.  During the 19th century, playing chess for stakes was a common thing. Stake were no more than each player putting up a certain amount of money, the winner take all. Often stakes were put up by backers. In the cafes, such as the famous Cafe de la Regence in Paris, games were constantly played for money. House masters would give odds to players to even up the game, then they'd play for a set amount of money. But gambling took other forms. For example when Morphy played Harrwitz, the house master of la Regence, they each put up stakes. Morphy was totally set against this gambling aspect but was also quite aware that it was unavoidable at times. Harrwitz won the first two games of the match, then Morphy caught fire and started winning. Harrwitz made excuses not to play and finally conceded the match rather than lose over the board. Morphy, satisfied that he was the better player, wanted to nullify the match, but was convinced to accept Harrwitz's resignation and accept the stakes because without this clear victory, there would be a lot of potential trouble with all the side-bettors who stood to win or lose a lot of money on the results and may not be able to collect unless Morphy accepted the stakes. Moprhy took the stakes and used them to pay Adolf Anderssen's expenses for their upcomng match (which was played without stakes).

Chess is played for money everyday in places like Washington Square, where chess hustlers convene. Chess hustlers have almost always been a part of the chess culture. There's even a club on this site called "The Chess Hustlers" in honor for players who first earned their living this way - players such as Roman Dzindzichashvili and Genrikh Chepukaitis, as well as non-masters such as Humphrey Bogart who survived his pre-fame days hustling chess.