Culinary lessons had me all cooked up in the “classroom” kitchen a little longer than I’d expected. Finally managed to sit down, and look into the lines conjured through C78.

Let’s see if I can fair "better" on the board than over the oven…the line thus far is:

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5

9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Nxd5 Bxe1 12) Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13) Kxf2 Kxf7 14) Nb4+ Kg6 

15) Nxc6 Ng4+

16) Ke2 or Kf1 = weaker? → Yes, agreed.

Note:  Tried 16) Kg3 as well → but can’t make much of it.

Looking at Option B:  14) Nb4+ Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6 → which allows White's Knight to leap to e5, blocking the Queen view of h7…

Do you mean that Black’s Queen view of h2 is blocked?       

With 16) Ne5 = double-attacking f7 → then, Black responds with:  

16)…Rf8 → preparing to utilize an open file via double check with Knight to g4. 

Other feasible options may include: 

16)…c5 → undermines d4,

or

16)…Be6 → prompting an exchange from Bb3, hence: 

i.   Eliminating the strength that comes in pairs (as discussed earlier),                                           ii.  Minimizing White’s control over light-colored diagonals, and                                              iii. Ends any combinative threats (via Ne5) - stemmed from the long diagonal of a2-g8.  

Note:  Out of all the three options:  16)…Rf8 → may be the best response. I’m not sure if prompting a Bishop exchange is good for Black at this stage. From an earlier assessment: 

Black needs the combinative strength of all available (feasible) pieces:  v) Bc8 → the White squared diagonal h3-c8 

However, both 16)…c5 and, 16)…Be6 could be investigated further, if you want.  

Final Note (with regards to option A and B):  14)...Kg8 probably loses or draws for Black → this should be:  14)…Ke8.   

As for the “oomph sequence” which entails a Rook sac: 

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5    9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Rxe4+   

You gave: 11)...dxe4 12) Nxf7 Qd7 → too passive for Black’s Queen. She needs to get out of the fork by taking d4. The central positioning ensures that Nc3 is attacked twice, whilst prompting a Q-swap.  

Therefore I prefer:  11)...dxe4 12) Nxf7 Qxd4

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7
14. Nb4+ Kg6 15. Nxc6 Ng4+

Back to your posting on - 16) Kg1 (16. Ke2 and 16. Kf1 seem weaker)
( from Option A:  14. . .Kg6 )
All these candidate moves seems to fail : 16. . .Qh4, 16. . .Nxh2, 16. . .Qf6 and 16. . .Qd6

16. . .Ng4+ seems to refute the line however.
Of the line given, or those I've followed, your idea of a Q swap seems the strongest, but still leaves white down the exchange AND a pawn. White still has some chance for a possible draw, but is probably losing.

This line makes Option A a strong variation for Black.

Option B 14. . .Ke8
I'm not sure about it.
You gave: 14) Nb4+ Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6, which allows White's Knight to leap to e5, blocking the Queen view of h7 and double-attacking f7.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7
14. Nb4+ Ke8 15. Nxc6 Qd6 16. Ne5 ... and White stay even

So, Option A (14...Kg6) with 16. . .Ng4+ probably wins for Black 
     Option B (14. ..Kg8 ) probably loses or draws for Black

That’s ok – it was best we verify the sequence we had formed together so that we would be on the same page when the lines/variations are presented again. 

So to sum it thus far, it is: 

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5 9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Nxd5 Bxe1 12) Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13) Kxf2 Kxf714) Nb4+…  

14)…Kg6 15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 16) Kg1 Qd6 

or 

14)…Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6  

We’ll put these two on hold and, we’ll look at the “oomph sequence” which revolves around a Rook sac:

11) Rxe4+…

I’ll write again soon. Thanks.

Nevermind me. I'm braindead.

Ng4+ is what I meant and what I thought I was typing.

So, anywhere in the past several posts you see Ne5+, susbtitute Ng4+

Sorry about that.

There were two variations I listed for Black: 14)…Kg6 or 14) Ke8 

If 14)…Kg6, then 15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 

or 

If 14)…Ke8, then 15) Nxc6 Qd6  

So where again would the Ne5+ come into play?

This is the posting that fixed my mind on 15) Nxc6 Qd6?? ______________________________________________________________________ 

Hence, suggested squares for Black after 14) Nb4+… 

A: 14)…Kg6 ® retreat to the side of the board, as White’s Bishops cuts off diagonals, a2-g8 and c1-h6? (same remarks from previous post)

or...  

B: 14)…Ke8 ® retreat to back rank, behind e-pawn?

Therefore:

If A: 15) Nxc6 Ng4+® Black slowly enlist it’s pieces from (i) – (v) 

If B: 15) Nxc6 Qd6 ® same as above 

_____________________________________________________________________

 This is the posting that gives the alternate 15.Nxc6 Ng4+  16.Kg1 Qd6!

____________________________________________________________________

I really do wish chess.com would number these postings for easier and faster reference.  

In the sequence you give, Ne5+ is played first! 

Uhmmm – which sequence is this again…? 

There were two options (sequences) I gave from the line that we were looking into:

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5    9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Nxd5 Bxe1 12) Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13) Kxf2 Kxf7  

A: 14) Nb4+ Kg6 15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 

or 

B: 14) Nb4+ Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6  

And no, I don’t think you’re getting too far off track. I’m interested in the “oomph sequence:” The line given is:

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5   9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Rxe4+  

I’ll try and present a response to this later this week. Thanks.

Earlier this week when I was playing through the information you added, I read the part: Hence, the variation I prefer here is: 16) Kg1 Qd6.

I had thought we had alread examined Qd6 and found it losing. Then I realized I had looked at Qd6 within a slightly different sequence:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7
14. Nb4+ Kg6 15. Nxc6 Qd6 16. Ne5+ Kf5 17. g4+ Nxg4+ 18. Qxg4+ Kf6 19. Bg5# (or Qg5#)

In the sequence you give, Ne5+ is played first!  This changes everything entirely from White winning to White losing. In fact I think it entirely refutes the line as given. 

I've been looking all this over - and it's very confusing and time consuming -  and came up with a slightly different idea.  In the above sequence, White sacs his Rook for an attack. What if, since the Rook is being sacked anyway, White does it in a different manner with a little more oomph!

e.g.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Rxe4+

then, after something like, 11...dxe4 12. Nxf7 Qd7 13. Nxh8

White can plant his Bishop firmly on f7: Nxd4 14. Bf7+ Kf8

and try to tactically put the screws on Black's exposed position -  15. Be3 Bxc3 16. bxc3 Nf5 17. Bc5+ Nd6

or am I getting too far off track?

We’re looking into the below mentioned:

1) e4 e5 2) Nf3 Nc6 3) Bb5 a6 4) Ba4 b5 5) Bb3 Nf6 6) O-O Nxe4 7) Re1 Nf6 8) Ng5 d5    9) d4 e4 10) Nc3 Bb4 11) Nxd5 Bxe1 12) Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13) Kxf2 Kxf714) Nb4+ Kg6         15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 16) Kg1

This is from Option A: 14)…Kg6 ® retreat to the side of the board, as White’s Bishops cuts off diagonals, a2-g8 and c1-h6. 

Several continuations were provided after 16) Kg1… 

i.  16)…Qh4 → “seems to offer Black nothing,” Agree! Nc6 is a thorn in Black’s flesh and the fact that Bb3 and Bc1 can be utilized in supporting the lone White Knight, intensifies this threat. And least we forget about Qd1!

ii.  16)…Nxh2 → “looks good for White,” Yes it does! Therefore, citing a remark from any earlier post, “Black needs the combinative strength of all available (feasible) pieces.”

iii.  16)…Qf6 → “looks really bad for Black,” True! Which why Black must take hold of a square which enables her to multi-task effectively.  

I toyed with the idea of having 16)…Qf8 for a bit, but nothing hits closer to home than d6. Bringing us back to the previous post:

“Switch to h2-b8 diagonal via Qd6,” and “strength in light and dark squared diagonals.” 

This counters the threat from the Knight by attacking it, and eyes h2!  Hence, the variation I prefer here is: 16) Kg1 Qd6

Other continuations offered: 16) Ke2…and 16) Kf1… 

If 16) Ke2… 

Then, I’ll stick with 16)…Qd6 → with all the same reasons listed above. 

If 16) Kf1… 

I’m not sure if I should try 16)…Qh4 or 16)…Rf8+ → still undecided as I type this.

How about a Q-swap? Instead of playing: 16. Kg1…after 15) Nxc6 Ng4+

We could try:  16) Qxg4 Bxg4 17) Nxd8 Rxd8...

An endgame scenario would be either one or more of these listed below: 

• Queenside Pawns 4 on 3
• Kingside Pawns 2 on 2
• A pair of Bishops and a Rook pair
• A Rook and A Bishop
• Passed Pawn

 *Thinking*Think*Thought*

There’s option… B: 14)…Ke8 ® retreat to back rank, behind e-pawn? 

14) Nb4+ Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6     

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7
14. Nb4+ Kg6 15. Nxc6 Ng4+ 16. Kg1

The line (following the variations beginning in red) seems to end with 16.Kg1 almost forced.

16...Qh4 seems to offer Black nothing.

• 17. Ne5+ Kh5 18. Bf7+ g6 19. Bf4 Qf2+ 20. Kh1 Qh4

16...Nxh2

• 17. Kxh2 Qd6+ 18. Ne5+ Kf6 19. c3 Re8 20. Bf4 looks good for White.

16...Qf6 seems interesting-:

• 17. Bd5 Rf8 18. Bd2 e3 19. Bb4 Nf2 20. Qe1 Re8 21. Ne5+ Kh5 22. Qxe3 looks really bad for Black.

Hello Gert

Thank you for your inputs…but if you wouldn't mind, I like to stay focused on the lines Sarah Beth had provided (highlighted in green in my previous post).  

 Would like to look into this later though:

“8) d4 d6 9) Ng5 Bg4 10) Bxf7+ Ke7 11) f3 h6 12) fxg4 hxg5

Until here it’s a little forced then…

13) Bg6 and black has to play Rh6 14) Qd3! Nxd4 15) Bxg5 Rxg6 (or 15…Ne6 doesn’t help)   

16) Qxg6…white can start power play” 

I'll comeback to your lines shortly…my brain cells are currently on stand-by (sleep) mode from all this Ruy Lopez’ing - is there such a word?!

Thanks again…

p.s. quit smoking ‘eh? It’s been 7 years for me - since May 1^st and as for turn-based, and those that move slow - we’ll talk about that later.

Thank you for these lines:

15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 16) Ke2 Nxh2 (threatens Bg4+)

15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 16) Kf1 Rf8+ 17) Ke1 Qh4+ 18) g3 Qxh2

15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 16) Kg1… 

16)…Qh4 17) Ne5+ Kh5 18) Bf7+ g6 19) Nxg4 Bxg4 20. Qd2 

or 

16)…Nxh2 17) Kxh2 Qh4+ 18) Kg1 Bg4 19) Qd2 Rhf8 20) Ne5+ Kh5 21) Bf7+ Rxf7 22. Nxf7 

or 

16)…Qf6 17) Bd5 Qf2+ 18) Kh1 Rf8 19) Bd2 Qf6 20) Ne5+ Nxe5 21) dxe5 Qxe5 22) Bxa8 Rd8 23. Qe2 Rd4  

I would like to look into these as well (with the possibility of a Q-swap) - at a later time.

Very good analysis above! 

Thank you, Sarah Beth - it’s still half baked and uncooked though - more work needs to be done (or more work could be done)…may have miss one or two things along the way…can’t look into anymore lines right now…but I’ll get back to this shortly. 

In the meantime, I think it’s best I correct the 1^st line presented: 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6 8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7 14. Nb4+ Kg6 (if 14…Ke8 15. Nxc6 Qd6)

15. Nxc6 Qd6 (should be 15…Ng4+) : This is what happens when my thoughts run amok like the little ones pumped up on sugar at the Play School. They all over the place - I wish I had a huge old fishing net, where I could scoop them all up in one instance. 

I’ve added too many variations, looked into too many lines, mixed in too many possibilities - and without the *GE (Game Editor) diagram, I think I lost myself too! 

So please allow me to scoop up my thoughts, and put them all in order again. 

From the preferred line of 14) Nb4+… 

We’ve A: 14)…Kg6 or 

We’ve B: 14)…Ke8 

Let’s look at A: 14) Nb4+ Kg6 15) Nxc6 Ng4+ 

[A: 14)…Kg6 ® retreat to the side of the board, as White’s Bishops cuts off diagonals, a2-g8 and c1-h6? (same remarks from previous post) = if A: 15) Nxc6 Ng4+® Black slowly enlist it’s pieces from (i) – (v)] 

now… 

Let’s look at B: 14) Nb4+ Ke8 15) Nxc6 Qd6 

[B: 14)…Ke8 ® retreat to back rank, behind e-pawn? = if B: 15) Nxc6 Qd6 ® as above]    

Addition notes on Black King’s restricted movement:

• 14)…Kg6 = ventures out - but hovers away from White’s Nc6.

• 14)…Ke8 = safer square - but hovers closer to White’s Nc6. 

• Both squares 14)…Kg6/Ke8 → must be wary of White’s Bishop pair (Bb3 and Bc1).

• However, with 14)…Kg6/Ke8 → sets up open f-file, stays clear of Qd8 and Bc8’s diagonal. 

• Finally, Black must counter now - or face more pressure on the back ranks.

Green text cites Batgirl

Blue text cites Allygirl 

*GE - unable to post diagrams as game editor freezes up once too often.

Gert,

I'm sure you're absolutely right that there are better moves than 8.Ng5, otherwise it would be the main line. But we're not really looking for the best lines in the Spanish Game. We're just examining the feasibility of Ng5, here on move 8, but maybe at some other point.  It was just a thought-of-the-moment that I had and Ally picked up on it. So, we're examining it as something like a creative exercize.  After all, girls just want to have fun, and nothing brings out the Romance in chess like a bold Knight, even one that tilts at windmills.

Very good analysis above! 

• If A: 15) Nxc6 Ng4+® Black slowly enlist it’s pieces from (i) – (v) If B: 15) Nxc6 Qd6 ® as above 
  

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7
14. Nb4+ Kg6

15. Nxc6 Qd6

Is this forced? 16. Ne5+ Kf5 17. g4+ Nxg4+ 18. Qxg4+ Kf6 19. Bg5# (or Qg5#)

15. Nxc6 Ng4+

16.Ke2 Nxh2 (threatening Bg4+)

16.Kf1 Rf8+ (17. Ke1 Qh4+ 18. g3 Qxh2, etc.)

some ideas...

16. Kg1 Qh4 17. Ne5+ Kh5 18. Bf7+ g6 19. Nxg4
Bxg4 20. Qd2

16. Kg1 Nxh2 17. Kxh2 Qh4+ 18. Kg1 Bg4 19. Qd2
Rhf8 20. Ne5+ Kh5 21. Bf7+ Rxf7 22. Nxf7

16. Kg1 Qf6 17. Bd5 Qf2+ 18. Kh1 Rf8 19. Bd2 Qf6
20. Ne5+ Nxe5 21. dxe5 Qxe5 22. Bxa8 Rd8 23. Qe2 Rd4

You’re welcome Gert!

And bless you too…

9) Ng5…Uhm, I haven’t thought about that - to be honest. But we can look at it…if you want.

What else do you've after 10) Bxf7+…

(no hurry whatsoever - please take your time)

I would like to look at other scenarios where Ng5 can be injected into the game as well.

Rudimentary is fine, and there’s no hurry either - we can add or subtract to the variations as we go along. 

The lines are as stated below:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7 

Primary Option: Variation #4 with 14) Nb4+ ® discovered check…

Secondary Option: Variation #3 with 14) Nxc7+ Ke7 15) Nxa8…Bg4, but I would prefer 15)…Nxd4 ® puts a stop to the advancing d-pawn. 

If White tries 16) Bg5 = pins Nf6…or if 16) c3 = harass Nd4, then… 

16) Bg5 Bb7 ® Na8 is lost, and e4 is guarded…

or...

16) c3 Nxb3 ® *eliminates the strength that comes in pairs (Bishops), threatens Ra1, and looking for a Q-swap… 

Going back to the initial variation of 15)…Bg4 16) Qd2 Qxa8…and White remains down a piece for a pawn. That ultimately would be it, agreed. 

Hence, we’re looking at: discovered check with 14) Nb4+… 

14)…Be6 ® though this *trades off the Bishop pair, should Black give up the White-squared Bishop at c8? If so, there would be no piece to compliment Qd8 (*strength in light and dark squared diagonals) or when Nf6 tries Ng4+ (provided there’s no pin from Bg5).

Black needs the combinative strength of all available (feasible) pieces:  

i)  Qd8 ® retain current diagonal via Qh4 or switch to h2-b8 diagonal via Qd6

ii) Nf6 ® looking to Ng4 eventually (King-side attack)

iii) Rh8 ® eyes open f-file via Rf8 (when Ng4)

iv) e4 ® guards f3 (a useful support)

v) Bc8 ® the White squared diagonal h3-c8

So if Black proceeds with 14)…Be6 15) Bxe6+ Kxe6 ® and that’s open water; so yes, agreed: White is looking good. 

Hence, suggested squares for Black after 14) Nb4+… 

A: 14)…Kg6 ® retreat to the side of the board, as White’s Bishops cuts off diagonals, a2-g8 and c1-h6? (same remarks from previous post)

or...  

B: 14)…Ke8 ® retreat to back rank, behind e-pawn?

Therefore:

If A: 15) Nxc6 Ng4+® Black slowly enlist it’s pieces from (i) – (v) 

If B: 15) Nxc6 Qd6 ® same as above 

I had been hoping to do some deep analysis before writing anymore, but time hasn't been on my side.

I did do some rudimentary work on it however.

The line we're looking at is:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Nf6 6. O-O Nxe4 7. Re1 Nf6
8. Ng5 d5 9. d4 e4 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Nxd5 Bxe1 12. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 13. Kxf2 Kxf7

after which White seems to have two good moves: 14.Nxc7+ or 14.Nb4+ .

At this point, I tend to prefer 14.Nb4+ and after 14. . .Be6  15.Bxe6+  Kxe6  16.Nxc6, White is looking good.

After 14.Nxc7+ Ke7  15.Nxa8, the 15. . .Bg4 16.Qd2  Qxa8 and White remains down a piece for a pawn.

It's true that 8.Ng5 breaks the rule about move a piece twice in an opening, but it's a coomon move in the 2 Knights' Defense. While that same reason is given why it theoretically shouldn't work in the 2 Knights' Defense, proving it has so far been next to impossible. Black can counter, or nullify, the attack in several ways, but can't seem to gain any advantage from White's flaunting the rule. The only "possible" exception might be the Traxler, but I think with best play, even that don't give black any advantage due to White's tempo-wasting move.  So far, in the lines that have been examined, 8.Ng5 seems quite playable. Which, because of the reasons cited, seems curious to me. 

To add something to this Ruy Lopez discussion;

At first black 7…Nf6 is that good at all? Stronger I think is :

7… d5 8. d3 Nf6 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 and then white goes on with 10. Rxe5+ or Bf4(I like better). Or 7…Nc5 even better but in this variation I think white can always be happy.

But the question was is 8.Ng5 a playable move? If you play a less stronger player maybe you can try it but….it’s a kamikaze move, I think :))

White should play 8.d4 That is winning in this position. (so the beginning position was not in balance at all, black didn’t play the opening well.

After 8.Ng5 black continuous with 8…d5

White losing the upper hand 9. d4 e4 10 Nc3, 10 a4 or 10 f3 is not good for white.

I think there is an other reason why Ng5(not only in this case) is not good… The opening is not finished, so you lose a tempo in development.

I like the idea to go on with this kind of  “testing”.